I'm bored...

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 01/14/2016 at 14:35 • Filed to: Inquiries

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So here are two random questions and inquiries, and just getting some things off my mind.

1. I’ve only driven a 2015 Mustang(IRS), is it really that much of a difference driving around town or even in something such as autoX compared to an S197 live-axle Stang? Because I swear, everyone on forums seems to say the newest ones are somehow infinitely better than before. I just can’t imagine live axle being that bad or that uncomfortable; but the only live axle experience I’ve gotten was driving an FB RX-7, and it wasn’t uncomfortable or bad at all.

2. Will the V8 cars of our dreams(or in this case, mine) ever be affordable one day? I think I must be growing up because I’m finally realizing cars, both new and used, are damn expensive. A used 2015 Mustang GT or Challenger RT or Charger RT or whatever is still in the $30k range. I’ve always got the feeling they’ll only be affordable once they’re fully used, high mileage beaters and hoopties. Of course these are still pipe dream cars of mine while in college, and I hope to one day be fortunate enough to have a well-paying job and afford one; but how long? That’s always the question. Time is such a blessing and a curse. It makes things cheaper, but waiting for however long it takes is such torture on the mind. I’m also realizing cars aren’t the only important things in life. Everything I’m learning in life is conflicting with what I know and make myself believe. Does anyone else ever have similar thoughts? I just gotta make it through college and hopefully things won’t seem so stressful as they are now. Have to stay hopeful and positive, even that seems difficult getting older and older. But hey, it could always be worse! Just have to think of the positives currently in life....At least I’m not in Syria..

It’s just nice to get things off my mind.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 14:51

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1. Yes, when driven hard, or on terrible roads the new one is much better IMO.

2. They’ll come down. The issue right now is availability. They’re still very new and they are significantly better than what they replaced, so the old cars take a hit and the new ones hold a premium. Once these start to come off of the 36-39 month leases, you will see a noticeable downtick in pricing.

RallyWrench > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 14:59

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I haven’t driven a new one, but drive a stick axle car over some sharp bumps or uneven surfaces, particularly after mid-corner when you’re trying to put power down, and you’ll feel a huge difference.

To answer your later question, these cars will be incredibly cheap someday because 1) they’re mass produced 2) the electronics will make them expensive to keep on the road as they age and 3) fuel costs will get much, much higher, making cars like these very unpopular. 2 and 3 are a ways away, but in 10 years these will be $10k cars.

Needmoargarage > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:04

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I’ve driven both a 2015 and SN197 around town and in more testing environments. Short answer: around town driving easy, a live axle SN197 isn’t really that bad. Driving hard with poor surface conditions, yes it will make all the difference in the world.

2) Yes. If you don’t have to have the newest model always, used car prices have been relatively similar over the years. Some people overlook inflation when comparing the price of a car today to that of 10 years ago.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > RallyWrench 01/14/2016 at 15:07

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Fair enough. And 2 and 3 don’t make me feel better. It seems like we’re truly living in the last golden age of cars, and I’ve the wrong car to live through it with.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Needmoargarage 01/14/2016 at 15:08

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Maybe next time I’m given the chance to drive both, I’ll find a shitty road and test it, because it isn’t hard to find a shitty road in Michigan.

Can you further explain to me please?

wiffleballtony > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:10

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I drive a 2012 with the live rear axle. In an autocross setting, assuming the pavement is smooth, you won’t notice a difference. You may actually get a better launch. In fact 80% of the time you won’t notice. The remaining 20% of the time if you’re driving over rough ground you’ll notice. Not that you’ll actually lose traction and spin out but it isn’t as confidence inspiring.

they-will-know-my-velocity > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:13

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Shit I’m right there with you on the cost of cars. I’m also naturally cheap so I may only own one or two brand new cars in my life. Who knows.

As the for IRS on the S550 vs the live-axle S197 - it is much improved in the ways that count - Ride and cornering.

I’ve had two S197's one with totally stock suspension, the other with aftermarket LCA’s, coilovers, adjustable panhard par, etc. With a little tweaking the live axle is probably as good as it can ever be. Ford went further than anyone ever wanted them to. The Boss 302 incorporated some of the aftermarket tweaks and with a watts-link and stiffer bushings on the upper control arm, it corners way better than people expect.

That being said, set up like that, it rides...bad. Just bad. No way around it. Do what you want with improved bushings and geometry but it’s a solid axle. One end goes up, the other must go down. So bounce bounce bounce.

Also, it is susceptible to mid corner upset. Remember, both ends have to articulate whenever a bump is encountered so if you are mid corner at grip and you roll over say, a large gap where the two bridge sections meet on a mixmaster, the rear end will lose grip and step out. It’s easy to expect and correct but if you are pedal down and it catches you by surprise, it is very easy to lose the car and slide ass end out of the turn.

I would love to see a track built S550 and Boss 302 go at it. I expect that the difference won’t be how well they corner, but how easy it is to get them to do it. Live axle is a little more work and pretty damn uncomfortable. Adjustable coils on a S550 is probably a pretty sweet set up. Stiff for the track and supple for the trip home.

RallyWrench > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:13

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You’re not alone in that sentiment, and I’m older than you are. I’d be happy to drive a FoST everyday or have a 944, so you’ve got some nice machines to enjoy for now! I actually told my wife the other day, if I could do one frivolous thing for myself in life right now, I’d buy a new Mustang GT in blue and keep it forever, because I don’t think they’re going to be quite this cool again. Get ‘em while the getting’s good.

Needmoargarage > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:16

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So, the SN197 is a huge improvement to the SN95 Mustangs, mostly because of the implementation of a panhard rod which essentially prevents the entire rear axle from moving laterally relative to the rest of the car. Still, a solid axle car will still rock from side to side as the car passes over uneven pavement. Around a corner, this makes it hard to gain maximum traction since one wheel will have less load on it. (This is probably a lot easier to visualize if you can see a video or animation.)

Long story short, it makes the rear end of the car feel disconnected and unpredictable, and that is majorly accentuated on a crappy surface.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > RallyWrench 01/14/2016 at 15:21

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I feel if I was given an opportunity to get a new Camaro SS or Mustang GT for cheap, I’d give up the ST and 944 in a heartbeat. Because I think after this decade, things aren’t gonna be nearly as exciting. Sure I’ve got some nice machines right now, but given the way things are going now, when I’m finally able to, I worry there will be no point, gas will be expensive, insurance will suck, and financial security should and will be more important that cars....Growing up is a bitch.

vondon302 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:40

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No and yes.

RallyWrench > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:41

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Aye, lad. That it is. Responsibility and shit.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > vondon302 01/14/2016 at 15:44

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Explain please?

Jayhawk Jake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 15:59

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Depends how you define affordable. Adjusted for inflation I don’t think V8 sports cars have really gotten much more expensive than they used to be. It’s just that income hasn’t grown as much as inflation/cost of living, so they seem to be more expensive.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jayhawk Jake 01/14/2016 at 16:02

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Fair enough. And I don’t think income will be growing any time soon.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 16:25

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All mass-produced cars will depreciate like a rock.

Also, I subscribe to the belief that what was cool “way back then” is probably still cool now. Some uniqueness was lost when the Mustang went to IRS, and a 2013 GT is still a pretty cool car. Those should be coming down in value. How about try that when you get your first job out of college, and have fun with it while you wait for the 2015s to age out?

Jayhawk Jake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 16:39

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Tell me about it. Inflation alone doesn’t seem to quite capture it. A 1972 V8 Camaro with Z28 package would have listed at $3600 according to the google. CPI calculator shows that has the same buying power as $21000 in 2015.

TahoeSTi > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 17:24

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I drive a SN95 mustang with a Live axel and a 4 link suspension, and the big difference is bumps and uneven road. The live axel is alot more lively out back, when one tire hit’s a bump it effects the other more then with IRS. If you switch them to a 3 link set up it’s much much better but still not quite as good. I have everything upgraded in the stock 4 link and that helped alot, if i get time this winter i’ll try to get the 3 link suspension put on and see how it changes the car.

bryan40oop > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 19:52

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1. IRS is better. Much better. Not so much on auto cross, but on bumpy roads i.e. backroads. Yes, dear god the difference is astounding. You can accelerate out of corners and not wheel hop into the opposite lane.

Not trying to jab at the rotaries but that rx7 probably didn’t have the low end torque to wheel hop to badly. And it was a much lighter car.

2. The cars are a lot better equipped these days as standard. And the power figures they produce make them a damn good bargain.

My 5.0 is every bit as refined as say a german v8 ahem m3. Until pushed. The turn in isn’t as good, braking is more nervous, spring rates aren’t as good. But are the germans twice as much more car?

Chris Harris doesn’t seem to think so, neither do I.

Fun fact, the car he is driving is just like mine. Minus the silly locking wheel nut and euro spec tail lights.

Axial > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/14/2016 at 21:01

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Find a car from 20 years ago that you really, really like. Find one in good shape.

Buy that.

That’ll be around $15,000. I got a ZR-1 for less than that and I just turned 25. My other favorite cars from that period are the ‘88 Fiero GT, ‘89 Ferrari 348, and ‘95 Dodge Ram 2500 V10. All of them are inexpensive (except the Ferrari, which is only about as expensive as a new Corvette).

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 01/15/2016 at 00:29

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1. Yes, the new IRS is so much better in every way. My Dad’s 2015 Roush (Comes with coilovers) rides so much better than his 2014 and 2012 did. And light years ahead of my 03! Even just accelerating lightly and hitting a bump, the car just takes it like it’s nothing. The LRA would always have a fit. I’m even more impressed how well the car still rides with the coilovers. It’s stiff but not harsh.

2. S197 5.0's are hovering around just above 20K now with relatively decent miles on them. For a 420HP V8 that’s not bad at all. In a few years I’m sure they’ll be even cheaper. Same with the 15's. Patience is key with that one. Look hard and you’ll find a well maintained one for a good price. I miraculously found my well kept Mach in a sea of beat on Mustangs for 10K.